Oneplace Test Show

Speaker 1

Foreign welcome to Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm Dave Stone. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so glad that you found us. If you haven't followed us on Instagram yet, then you can do so by going to Pastor to Pastor podcast. If you're on YouTube, you can follow us at the Focused Pastor channel, and wherever you listen to podcasts, we are there.

Also, I want to make you aware that at the end of every podcast episode, we will always have a story. I will give you an illustration that you can use in your ministry. Whether that's as a Bible study teacher, a volunteer leader, or a preacher, there will always be an illustration that you can use.

But I've been very excited about today's episode. We drop a new one every Tuesday, and this week we speak with a special guest. His name is Max Lucado. Many of you know that name because of his preaching and writing. He has touched my ministry deeply in so many different ways. We've been good friends for over 25 years. He has authored over 40 books and has had numerous bestsellers. He serves at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, where he was a lead pastor for decades. Now he serves on the teaching team there with Travis Eads, who is the lead pastor. Max preaches around 20 weekends every year.

There's a new book coming out in August of 2025 called *Tame Your Thoughts*. What I love about Max is that he has sold over 150 million books, and yet he is the most down-to-earth guy you'll ever meet. In fact, he will downplay anything that's on his resume. He is humble and a servant leader. I remember years ago when we were both speaking on the same program. At that time, he had sold about 80 million books and was introduced that way. I came up to speak after him, and they interviewed me first, asking me to tell them a little bit about myself. I said, "Well, I'm a preacher. I'm an author. In fact, Max Lucado and I together have combined to sell over 80 million books." That was a true statement.

But I can't wait for you to meet this man because he will take us on a journey of grace. He will share with you some things that you've never heard him say before or write about. I can't wait for your Amazing Grace story to come alive in your own life as you hear his.

Join me for this conversation with Max Lucado. I think your writing on grace has taught me more about understanding how God loves us. Is that a topic that you've been drawn to throughout your ministry? Why is it that when I think about you, brother, I think about your introducing and explaining grace to people? Is that something that's common that other people say?

Speaker 2

I hear that quite a bit, and I have written a couple of books on grace. If I had to select what I think is a life message for me or a calling, it would be on the topic of grace. You know, my own testimony is that I resisted grace. I just couldn't believe God could forgive a jerk like me.

And so that's why I think that grace has come to be such a jewel. I just think it's such an amazing gift—an amazing gift unlike any other gift. You know, it makes it clear that there are only two religions in the world. I know we say this a lot: the religion that says "do" and the religion that says "done."

When a person crosses over from "do" to "done" and trusts that when Jesus said, "It is finished," he meant it, there's something wonderful that happens in that person's heart. It certainly is a wonderful memory for me when I found that grace. It is a great honor to talk to people and to teach them about the power of this life-changing grace.

Speaker 1

I know some of your books have been, you know, in the grip of grace. You know, I think about grace being even in the title, but it has been woven throughout the fabric of all your books, of your speaking, and it is a. I think that is a life story for you.

It's interesting. You said it is finished. I'm going to let me jump to something that I have recently seen on Instagram. Tell them about what you did, by the way. And I think it was just a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm 70 years old, and in March, I realized that I was at the golden age—the golden celebration of my discovery of grace. Because that happened 50 years ago in March of 1975. The super short version, Dave, and then I'll head to the punchline you're talking about: I was a drunk, I was a fighter. I always told my daughters, "If you ever see the 20-year-old version of your dad walking up the sidewalk, you go the other way." Because I really was, David. That's not hyperbole. I was a train off the tracks.

I come from a family of alcoholism, and I don't know if that's baked into my DNA or not, but boy, I can tell you the moment I had my first Coors and the way that sensation felt in my system. I was about 16 years old, and for four years, I built my life around six packs. And that's not the kind that come from crunches, but the kind that come from Coors. I just built my life around that. Of course, if you go down that path, then you're going to be with troublemaking people and become a troublemaker yourself. I was disrespectful of authority. I was disobedient to my parents.

My dad told me when it came time to selecting a college, he knew what a mess I was. He told me that if I wanted to go with my drinking buddies to where they were going to go to college—they were all going to a place called Texas Tech, which wasn't far from where I grew up—he said I could go with them, but I would have to pay my own tuition. He said, "If you want your dad to help you, you're going to a Christian college." In that case, it was Abilene Christian University. And, you know, I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I couldn't turn down that tuition help.

I was begrudging, though. I didn't like going to a Christian college. It had curfews, required Bible classes, and mandatory chapel. But I found a few guys with whom I could still get drunk, and we found all the bars and nightclubs that we could get into. Really, my zip code changed, but my life didn't. Our friend, who you know well, Steve Green, was my roommate, and he would invite me to church. On occasion, I would go, even with a hangover. I attended a church where Lynn Anderson, who's now in paradise, was preaching. Lynn loved to talk about grace and could do so beautifully.

I felt my heart—remember that John Wesley phrase? He felt his heart strangely warmed. That's what I would say. I felt my heart just warmed, and this went on for two years—my freshman year in college, my sophomore year. I came to a faith of, what can I say? I believed that Jesus rose from the dead. I believed that Jesus lived, but I just still couldn't believe that he could forgive me. One time in particular, Lynn was preaching on the power of grace: "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." I finally just said, "Okay, I'm going to cast my lot with Christ. What am I going to do if I don't?"

So, it was March 12, 1975, and they offered an invitation, an altar call, and chains couldn't have held me back. I was the first one down the aisle, and that was really the kind of a new birth for me. To commemorate that, in March of 2025, I went and got a tattoo. It's the word "tetelestai." That's what Jesus, as he hung on the cross, said—his next to last thing: "It is finished," tetelestai. And that's my favorite word in the Bible. So, I know 70-year-old pastors don't typically get tattoos, but that's okay.

Speaker 1

I think you could be a worship pastor now with that tattoo.

Speaker 2

I think so.

Speaker 1

You know, just get this biceps big and work away into. When you raise your hands up, they see to tell a story, it tells the story right there.

Speaker 2

I love it. It is a wonderful conversation starter. Yeah. The other day my dentist said, "What is that on your arm?"

Well, let me tell you, you know, it's just terrific. But I didn't even do it for that. I just did it so every day I could say, "Thank you, Lord, that you're willing to forgive someone like me."

Speaker 1

I love that story. And it allows you to tell your life story when someone does ask. I love to ask people what's your favorite tattoo that you have or what's the story behind that? It does open doors.

Uh, yeah. I don't know if you know this, Max, but one time I shared the story of "to Telestie" in a sermon. I think it was a Good Friday sermon. Afterwards, I had a horse owner who had had horses in the Kentucky Derby and the Belmont, Preakness. He came up to me, a good friend of mine, and he said, "Listen, I'm going to be looking for a horse and I'm going to name it 'to Telestie.' You don't name a horse until I think it's 2 years old or 1 year old; I can't remember which it is. But he said, 'I'm going to wait for just the right one.'"

Sure enough, a few years later, he said, "I found the one." He named his horse "to Telestie." He thought, "Hey, this will be a great opportunity to witness when people say, 'What in the world does that mean?'" You know? He said, "Well, it ties in with the horse crossing the finish line, but it also ties in with my own story of grace."

So his horse won a few races; it didn't do great, but he loved being able to share that as a witness. So that's exactly what you're doing with your tat.

Speaker 2

Well, it is. It is a great opportunity. And I'm. I'm surprised how many people have tattoos. I guess it's kind of like you don't know how many Volkswagens there are until you buy one. And you see them everywhere.

Speaker 1

You see them.

Speaker 2

But tattoos are a pretty big deal right now. Several people on our staff have come up and said, hey, Max, let me show you my tattoo. I said, well, we wouldn't have hired you if I'd have known you had a tattoo.

Speaker 1

Hey, a lot has changed in recent decades, that's for certain. But what, what a witness. Having spoken and preached at Oak Hills, there is nothing worse than being a guest speaker in San Antonio at Oak Hills, because the church is awesome. But when Max gets up to introduce you and say, "We've got a guest speaker today," there are hundreds of people who are passing through town who are visiting, that want to hear you, and you hear this collective groan. Our guest speaker today is Dave Stone. They came to hear you, and it's like, "Oh, who is this loser from Kentucky that you're throwing up there?"

But there is a spirit of joy among your church, and I've seen it for years, not just through your staff and through your eldership, but it does permeate the congregation. There is excitement. You've been kind to let me go on cruises with you, and I would speak in the early morning, and then you would speak mid-morning after me to clean up my mess. I know. I understand the intention of why you placed me where you did. But the spirit of the people from Oak Hills is something that is contagious.

I think that they have picked up on your meekness, on your humility, on your teamwork. Those are some of the things that stand out to me in your ministry. When you think about pastors nowadays and churches nowadays, what would be... I know you can't maybe quell it down to one thing, but what would be something that you think pastors need to be talking more about and pouring into their church? I know authenticity and some of those things are very important to you as a Christian leader. Is there anything that stands out that you say, "This is where we might be missing the mark," or "This is an area where we need to lean in more with our congregation?"

Speaker 2

What comes to mind is a decision that I made after we had been here about five years. So I came in 1988. We had been missionaries in Brazil. I had never been a senior pastor of a church, and I never preached each weekend in English. I did preach in Brazil in Portuguese. So I had. It was a new thing for me, but the church just took me in like a son. I mean, just. I was 33 years old. We had wonderful elders. The church was just so kind and gracious. And I made a lot of mistakes, but they were very patient with me.

After about three or four years, Dave, I thought we should do some changes that were pretty noticeable in terms of the way our worship style was. I felt like we could be a bit more contemporary, even discuss the idea of changing the name of our church. I had some good discussions with the elders on a variety of topics, but one of them was a better understanding of grace. And I started getting pushback from our elders. The message I was hearing was, "Max, you're just going a little too fast." There was a pompous part of me that reared up, and I thought that I might just go somewhere else. I had probably done what I was supposed to do here. You know, the first sign of pushback made me think I needed to go somewhere else.

I had lunch during that time with a fellow who pastors here in San Antonio, just a kind man. I complained to him that day over hamburgers about how the church, you know, I needed to move them, and they weren't moving fast enough. I expected him to be on my side, very sympathetic. I had even actually had a conversation with another church in another state, and I told him, "I think I may just, you know, pack up and head out."

So he asked me this question, Dave, all this to take us to this question. He said, "Let me understand, Max. So they don't let you preach the gospel anymore?" And, boy, that hit me like a lead balloon. I said, "Oh, no, they'll let me preach. I can preach about the love of God and the cross of Christ and the return of Christ." He said, "You mean you would leave a church that's inviting you to preach the gospel every week?"

I felt a shift in my perspective, kind of a Saul/Paul moment, in a sense. I got knocked off, in that case, my high horse. I just decided, okay, I'm going to stay here as long as they'll let me preach the gospel. We're not going to agree on some methodology, I'm sure. But if they're going to let me preach the gospel, well, that did it. That did something in my heart. I think it changed the way I looked at our church.

Speaker 1

Church.

Speaker 2

Because I looked at Oak Hills as my life assignment, not an itinerant or temporary assignment. So I kind of, you know, put my roots down. I started thinking of, okay, maybe it's not happening now, but I've got 20 or 30 years, so why am I in a hurry?

And I think it just calmed me down. I wasn't that, you know, change revolutionary sort of guy, but it helped me just to settle down and just get in for the long haul.

Speaker 1

Does that help somebody like that? Sometimes it comes alongside of you and just says, hey, stay the course. Look at what you do get to do. And it kind of gives you your. Your equilibrium. How many years have you been at Oak Hills?

Speaker 2

Well, I came in 1988, so I'd have to do the math on that is somewhere in the mid-30s, I guess. 36, 37 years.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

And, you know, my role now, you know, Travis Eads, he's our lead pastor now, and he's just doing a masterful job.

I moved into a teaching pastor role, which is a dream come true because I just preach about 20 times a year, and I'm available if Travis needs me. He doesn't need me much; he's doing awesome and frees me up to do a little more guest speaking.

Also, I just... I'm not quite pushing it quite like I used to, so I'll have a weekend a month that I just take off.

It's a beautiful rhythm that my wife and I are in now, and I'm really thankful for this chapter.

Speaker 1

Well, I'll say this for those who are listening, who may be almost toward retirement or transitioning into another role at your church. One of the things I appreciate about Max, and this has been indicative of who he is, is the way he is the biggest vocal supporter behind the scenes and in public when it comes to Travis Eads, and that's his successor.

Steve Green and I were talking about this just the way that you have modeled what that should be like as far as celebrating the success and the growth that's taken place, rather than, you know, the prideful pastor enjoys if church goes down, because in their heart of hearts, they think, well, you know, it's gone down because I'm not there anymore. That is so different than the kingdom-minded pastor who instead is saying, oh, I want to reach more people and I want them to have their greatest days ahead of them rather than behind them.

So thank you for that example. I see it in your life, and it's been one of those hallmark characteristics of you. When people think of you, they think of humility; they think of graciousness. And you know, as an aside, I would say I see Jesus in you, Max, in so many different ways. I think of how my kids love you, and my kids have loved you since they were young. I think of that picture of Jesus saying, "Let the little children come unto me," and the way you take a personal interest in others.

How is it that you have always had that? When people start to give you the praise, you know, you've sold more Christian books than any other author of all time. You always have this ability, when the glory is coming in your direction, to instead put the spotlight on someone else. What is it that motivates you to do that?

Speaker 2

Remember that sermon illustration about humility in the little boy fourth grader received a badge that said most humble in class and then his teacher took it away because he wore it.

Speaker 1

I can picture it. Yeah, well, you, I don't know you have it. And I know that that's something that you downplay and anytime you're always going to, like I said, turn that spotlight in another direction.

Is that something that's come naturally for you? Is that something that you've had to work at? It is worded that well because otherwise you're not going to answer this question.

Speaker 2

You know, I do think being such a sinner is a big advantage because I've just been forgiven so much. And to think seriously, that 20-year-old version of Max, you know, my brother died of alcoholism. He was sober the last two years of his life, but alcohol took so much from him.

As a kid, my dad would take me to visit his siblings and more times than I can even remember to see him. We had to go to rehab centers. And so I know what addiction can do to a life. I was a train off the tracks. For me, it's more than a testimony; it's a reminder of what God rescued me from and how he has used me.

And so yes, I am very grateful that the books have all done so well and I love preaching, but honestly, Dave, I don't know. It's not anything that I've ever conjured up. I genuinely am amazed and still surprised that God could, you know, he still speaks through donkeys like he did back there for Jabez.

Hey, do you remember that time?

Speaker 1

Through you, through the preached word, but he also speaks through your life and through the written word. Let's change gears and talk a little bit about that, because that's a good segue point. Writer's block is a real thing for pastors, for people working on a Bible study, writing a blog, or something for their church. I know we have a lot of people who do a lot of writing, and sometimes you just hit that wall.

I mean, your writing has inspired me and so many others. I remember the very first time that I met you. You were at Southeast at our church, and we were doing a question and answer time with you. I was running around with a microphone, and someone asked a question: do you write your sermons first or do you write your books first? You said, "90% of what I have written, I have already preached." Everybody kind of nodded, and I grabbed the microphone back from the questioner and said, "I can say the same thing. 90% of what Max has written, I have preached."

So, I have stolen a lot of your stuff, and I may have put the air quotes up there around something that you've said and maybe taken credit for it. I'm sure the Lord will smite me for that someday. But when you think about writer's block, didn't you say your first book was rejected by 10 or 15 different publishers? What number was it that they accepted your first book?

Speaker 2

Yeah, it was number 15. I got 14 rejections. But it didn't really bother me because I had no expectation. I thought, I don't. I don't know how you get published. I just went into my little closet of books. I didn't have that very many. I was 29 years old. We were in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. And I just used the address that was on the flyleaf of the books I had and mailed a manuscript out to 15 publishers. And one by one, rejection letters came back. But number 15, Tyndale House editor by the name of Wendell Hawley, said yes. And that was very gracious of them to take a chance on me.

Yeah. Hey, Dave, I got a story. Do you remember that time I came up to preach in Louisville at Southeast? And on a Saturday, you and I went and played golf, and your golf shoe came undone. Do you remember? Can I tell that story? I won't give too many details, but.

Speaker 1

David, remember it like it was yesterday.

Speaker 2

It was so funny because not only did his golf shoe come undone, it came undone from the front. The sole literally would. It was like an alligator mouth. As you were walking down the fairway, remember that noise? Yep.

Speaker 1

Every. Every step.

Speaker 2

And kind of embarrass the guy who was hosting us, I think. But you. You had to take a big step every time so you could. So I. You didn't.

I don't know if you knew that I got the shoe or how that happened, but I'm not really Mr. Clever like you are.

But I am proud of what I told Southeast the next morning. I held up that golf shoe with its flopping sole, and I said, "I'm here to report. I played golf with Dave Stone yesterday, and he lost his soul on the golf course."

Speaker 1

I remember it. And you held it up, and everybody loved it. And that's all I heard for the next few months, was, you know, our pastor lost his soul. Our pastor lost his soul. I know it's true because Max Lucado said it.

If Max Lucado said it, you know, that was a fun memory, and that was a blast. We've had a lot of good golf memories.

Writer's block.

Speaker 2

Writer's block.

Speaker 1

You're working on a sermon, you're working on a book, you're working on a project, a lesson, whatever it might be. What are some things that you've done to work through that? Because everybody experiences it.

Speaker 2

I think writer's block or creative block can come from a variety of sources. It seems to me, as I'm talking to people, that the most common issue is a lack of clarity around the one big idea you're trying to communicate. You know, you're studying with your church in the gospel or the book of Romans, and you feel like you're going down this rabbit trail, then this rabbit trail, then this rabbit trail. You feel like you just get this point made, but then you've got to move to the next verse, and you've got to make another point, and your thoughts are all over the place.

A real practical tip: A man told me 40 years ago that he had grown up as the son of a pastor. On Saturday night, his father, who was a retired pastor, would call his son, who was a pastor, and say, "Give me your sermon in one sentence." That really helped me. Dave, what's the one thing I'm trying to say? There are so many great things you can say, but writer's block tends to happen when we have too much going on and we can't land the plane because we've got 20 drones up in the sky.

So, I found that to be practical. What do you think?

Speaker 1

Well, I. Sometimes I get up and walk around. I make myself, because I can sit down if I'm working on a sermon, and I can not move for four and a half hours.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And one thing that Beth tells me is, she'll say, just get up and walk outside. Just get up and walk around. Walk, steps. Do something out of the ordinary to get you out of that routine. You know, that's something that even. Sometimes I get my best ideas in the shower, and I'm like, I got no place to write that down.

I had a good friend, Tim, that said, oh, you need to get aqua notes. I said, what the heck's an aqua note? He said, you can write in the shower. It's got a pencil. And when you write your ideas, it just sticks on the wall of your shower. So I've done that a lot of times when I'm in the shower, I'll get, oh, man, that's a great idea. And I just write down my ideas, and I might have four or five things there.

Or keep paper beside your bed or your phone beside your bed to where you can jot those ideas down in the middle of the night. I always say, if I get three ideas, that's the point when I have to get up from bed. If I get, you know, one or two, I can just jot those down or put them in my phone. But if I get three, I got to get up and start writing.

But I remember years ago, you talked about in your writing for preaching or for a book, that you try to take the B verbs out of it.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I think the way you described it was, you know, it'd be very natural just to write down, "Bill Smith was a good man." But you said instead, if you look at that and you think about it for a minute and you reword it, you might write, "Bill Smith echoed kindness." And when you said that, I'm like, oh, my word. That. That's. All of a sudden when you throw that word, "echoed kindness," you know, it's unbelievable how it changes that story.

And just going to that extra effort of landing on a word, you use a pause, the device of a pause in a sermon better than anyone that I've ever seen. We would share sermons back and forth with each other at times, especially Christmas or Easter or if there was some. I remember a hurricane one time. We shared stories, sermons back and forth, and I have so many more words in my manuscript than you do, and yet we preach about the same amount.

And I've finally realized from watching you preach so many times, so many pastors are scared of a pause and letting that silence just hang out there. And yet you are totally comfortable with that, and you use it to your advantage. Was that something that you had to learn just to let something sit out there? And the uncomfortableness or the congregation leaning in, did that come naturally, or is that something that you developed? We've never talked about that.

Speaker 2

You're right. A dramatic pause to let something just sit there, you know, to make a point and to give people a little time to absorb it. It's so, so powerful, you know, like, like, like, like what we're taught.

I gave you my tattoo testimony, and I've been sharing. I turned it into a sermon, and I've felt like I need to share it every opportunity because it is such an important message. A golden anniversary of grace only comes around every 50 years. Yeah, I better use it while I can.

And so I came up with this after I showed the people the tattoo. They all laugh, and I giggle. Anyway, I say I could care less if you tattoo this on your skin, but I care deeply that tetelestai be tattooed on your heart.

And you just stop right there. You don't have to say anything else, but you got to stop. You got to give it time. Right? You don't want to hurry on to the next phrase. So I don't know where or when I started doing that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you do a great job of varying your rates and also your volume.

And there are a lot who are listening right now. I'm 63, and there are a lot of us listening who started that way. That was what was going on 40 years ago.

I mean, the louder you were, the more amens you got, and also the better preacher you were. And then all of a sudden, people started having multiple services, and they couldn't do it.

Speaker 2

Isn't that the truth?

Speaker 1

And so they became more conversational in their style. And guess what? When we became more conversational, we also became more. Became more approachable.

Speaker 2

Approachable, yeah.

Speaker 1

And trust. People trusted us, and they wanted to listen and lean in a little bit more, because now it was a friend, you know, talking with you.

I heard you say one time, "A pastor's greatest weapon is not in polish, but it is in presence." Talk to Christian leaders just a little bit about being honest and pulling that veil back and just being there for your people as opposed to professionalism and having everything to where, you know, there's never a misstep in what you say.

But instead, it's more so communicating a spirit of teachability, of humility, of authenticity. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Speaker 2

We serve the church when we're adequately prepared, but we don't trust our preparation more than we trust the spirit of Jesus to work in that moment.

I don't want to be unprepared. Right. I do.

I'm not as smart as you, Dave. I have to carry the whole manuscript up on the platform with me.

Speaker 1

With me, too. I'm not like Travis, your replacement, or Kyle or Kyle, my successor. I heard Travis speak a couple months ago in San Antonio, and I said to Steve Green, I said, dude, I said, it's sickening to me.

Speaker 2

No notes.

Speaker 1

He did not have a note. And Kyle doesn't use one. He's got an iPad up there, but he looks at it some. But I've got 16 pages up there because my font's getting as big as yours when you preach. There is value in writing it down and learning from it, letting it percolate.

You talked earlier about writer's block. It's that habit of making yourself sit down and write. Jerry Seinfeld says he has three or four set times a week where he sits down for three or four hours and writes. Really? He says, "I make myself do it." And he admits that sometimes nothing comes up—nothing at all. He said it's just more doodling and trying to come up with something.

But then there are other times when it just catches fire. He emphasizes the importance of having that set appointment, that discipline of sitting down and saying, "Okay, I'm going to make myself do this, and I'm going to do my very best, and I'm not going to get up until this time is over."

Speaker 2

I hear that, and I do. I do the same thing. Tuesday for me is meeting day. If I can have it, I'll meet with anybody who wants to meet to a certain degree, if we can do it on a Tuesday. But Monday and Wednesday and Thursday morning, that's blocked out for study. Now, my wonderful assistant Karen knows that, and it's on the calendar. You know, it just says, "Blocked out, blocked out, blocked out."

What I've learned, Dave, I don't think I'm being dishonest, but when people say, "Hey, could we meet third Monday afternoon?" I'll just say, "I've got a commitment that afternoon." If I tell people I've got to study, their thoughts are, "Well, you can study another time," or, "What's the big deal? You know, I finished high school, I studied. I know what that's like." And so I don't even go there with people. I just say, "You know, that afternoon is blocked out," or "I have a commitment that day."

But I'm the same way. I've never heard this Seinfeld story, but if I don't block that time out, Dave, then it just won't get done. I'll get distracted. But if my assignment on a Monday is to write a sermon about Jesus and his existence before time, which I've been working on, I know that's my job. When I wake up that morning, I've got my books ready, and I'll go downstairs. Some days I feel like I make amazing progress. Some days at the end of the day, I think, "Good thing I've got two days this week, because I didn't get too far."

Speaker 1

Well, it's amazing to me the number of books that you have turned out because there is that pressure, just like there is that weekly preparation for a lesson or a Bible study or a sermon. And yet you've got to feel that pressure.

But there's something that happens where I've never dug into this with you, and I want to get your thoughts on this one. And we'll be wrapping up, but one thing I want to pick your brain on is how do you recall illustrations and stories? When something happens in your life, it ends up being written down, remembered, reworked over and over again.

Like we've talked about the rewriting, when some. What's your method that you use so that this might have potential? You know, I talked to this waitress yesterday, and this might come out of that, or I sat with this person on an airplane, and you start to develop and germinate a seed of a thought and say, I'm going to develop that.

Do you do this with Word documents? Do you put it in your phone? Do you start writing it, wondering if it might be something you could use in a message or a lesson or a book? Take us through your thought process.

Speaker 2

I can give you an example that just came to me this week. So here we are, in about four weeks, I get to get a brand new shoulder. My right shoulder is just bone on bone. It is worn out. I'm not looking forward to wearing a sling, but I don't really have a plan B.

As I was telling somebody about this, they said, "So you're getting it fixed?" And I said, "Well, no, actually they're going to take the joint out and they're going to put a new joint in because the joint that's in there just doesn't work. And it's getting worse day by day."

In that moment, my preacher brain kicked in right there, Dave. I said, "Oh, I'm going to use that as a sermon illustration." Because when we say yes to Christ, he doesn't just go in and try to fix the old sinful heart. He takes our hearts out and gives us a new heart, a spiritual heart.

Then I thought, okay, this still works because once I wear that sling and I'm not supposed to move for about a week, I've got to start doing physical therapy. I've got to get it strong again. I've got to get it developed again. The same way spiritually, you know, salvation is when we get the new heart. Sanctification is that ongoing physical therapy of the spirit in which we're growing in our faith. We don't just let things go undeveloped; we exercise those muscles.

So to your point, I think there are so many illustrations out there, and getting in the habit of looking for them is important. In that case, I scribbled down on a little sticky note: "shoulder replacement, new heart." Just that—shoulder replacement, new heart. And that's as far as I've gotten with it. But I think it'll work when the time comes, and I might get some sympathy from the church. I might ask them if they want to see my scar or something. No, I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 1

Well, you're showing your tattoos of people, so I would not advise a lot of people to do that based on where those tattoos are.

Well, you have done a great job of inspiring us to say, okay, I'm going to put these things down. I'm going to work, I'm going to rework, I'm going to continue to rewrite, but also just to shop those things with other people and share those with others and see if there's some traction.

Speaker 2

Yeah, just. So just test. Yeah, you do that. I do, I do. My poor wife. I'll say, honey, look what I'm thinking about this point. Point, you know, or I'll call up somebody and say, let me run today. I have lunch with Travis, and we're going to look at a sermon series we're working on. I've got some ideas to share with him.

And I'll also. I'll even go. I'll say, here's some teaching points. I think that that would really fit. What do you think? We'll swap ideas on that. I have gone as far one time in a sermon series on end times. And since that's such a heavy topic, right, we created a study group of four pastors on our staff. I would send a sermon to them a week out, and then we would meet the next week and we'd read it together, or they would have read it and they would point out what they thought worked and what they thought did not.

Then I would go back and try to incorporate some of their thoughts. And that meant I had to prepare the sermons several weeks in advance to do that. But that was very, very helpful. And so those kinds of things, testing ideas and sharing them with others. And anytime you can rewrite, I think you're going to be glad you did.

Speaker 1

And I'm certain that that became a part of your book. What happens next? And you've had this passion about the Second Coming and teaching on that.

And Max, I didn't have to read that book because at dinner every night, Beth would tell me everything that she had read that day in a chapter. So one less book sold for you. But Beth. Beth talked me through it. She loved the book.

Let me ask you this. There's a sense of urgency in your ministry in the last few years, and I know that was probably at the hearts of why the Second Coming and talking about the return of Christ is something that's near and dear to your heart.

Is that something that God bubbled up in your spirit? And is it because of the fact that you were about to turn 70 when you wrote that? Talk to us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2

That's, I think, a good observation. I think realizing that there is much more sand at the bottom of the hourglass than at the top makes a person want to finish well, finish strong. And there's a sense of urgency that I may not have another.

I live. I live. I'm in great health, by the way. I'm very, very grateful. But I do have an ascending aortic aneurysm that's pretty big. I have to have it measured every so often. And so when you get in this age, and you've got a couple of health issues that could be serious, it's a wonderful thing. It sharpens your focus on what matters and what doesn't.

I still struggle, though, Dave. I so wish I could someday preach a sermon and never worry about what they think of me. Or do they? Am I impressing them? I don't have the John the Baptist in me as much as I need to. I must decrease. I must decrease so that he can increase. I mean, he was imperative.

And so I find myself believing people when they say, "You're so good," or believing them when they call me, you know, names. "You're Reverend." It's. That's, that's. I don't like that about me. I really don't. May the Lord deliver me from that this side of eternity, or he may. It may be a thorn in the flesh that I live with, but that pursuit of making Christ the big story, that's what we have to continue to focus on.

Speaker 1

Well, you. Your testimony and your life work and ministry has done that. And thank you for the medical confirmation of what I have already seen in your life. And that is that you have a bigger heart than most anybody I know. God has used you through our friendship, but even in a public way, from your writing and from your preaching, to touch my heart in incredible ways.

I wonder if you would indulge us and just pray for all the Christian leaders who are listening to this podcast because there are a lot of them that need some inspiration and encouragement. Maybe God has just crisscrossed and intersected your words today with someone who's on the verge of maybe giving up and saying, "I don't know if I can keep serving in the church" or "I feel kind of beaten down and I feel like I've had 14 rejections by other church members or church leaders."

Maybe this conversation today will be that acceptance of them and letting them know that God is using them. Would you mind to pray?

Speaker 2

It's an honor, Dave. And thank you so much. Much, Dave. You've said so many nice things about me.

I need to have a whole nother broadcast so I can say all the things about you that I admire and love. You're a dear friend, a man of highest integrity and creativity.

Every time I'm with you, I'm better for it. So, Lord Jesus, good man, pray.

Speaker 1

Pray for us, brother.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Thank you so much. Our Father, you're the shepherd. We're under shepherds. And hearing Dave And Dave's voice and my voice are some people who are battling with discouragement. Maybe they are where I was, you know, at 38 and thinking about leaving. And maybe the message that that preacher gave to me is what someone else needs to hear, and that is, if you can preach the gospel, there's no need to go anywhere else. But, Lord, if you are calling someone to leave, if they're bringing a chapter to a close, would you direct them and bring them clarity and help them to see what you have assigned for them next? Father, as shepherds, we stumble often, and we pray for sexual purity. For these good men and women, we pray that you'd keep us from temptation. Grant us a victory over the battle of pride. Just because we stand behind a pulpit or on a platform, we're not any better, any better at all, than the people that you have entrusted to our care. So please help us to do our best to imitate John the Baptist and to become less so you can become more. I do pray, Father, for marriages of these men and women, that you'd keep them strong. Bless the spouses of pastors who carry an unusual burden unique to them. Let there be blessings given to them and unify your church. Father, don't let us have any more competition or hold up. One church is better than the other. Grant, O heavenly Father, that we can be a part of one church with many congregations. All these things we're just thankful for, Father. But most of all, we're thankful for your return. And we pray come soon, Lord Jesus, through Christ, we pray. Amen.

Speaker 1

Well, I think you got to see why I love Max Lucado. His spirit just comes through in such incredible fashion. And that whole concept of the golden anniversary of grace for him to give us that transparent look into his life in college of him struggling with drinking. I remember one time he said, I knew I had a problem when I had consumed a six pack in a Piggly Wiggly parking lot. And he said the six pack didn't even faze me. And to think of how God reached in and got a hold of him. And praise the Lord for some Christian roommates, Rick Ashley, Steve Green, guys who reached out to him and kept inviting him to church while he was at Bible College. And I love that phrase when Max said, change could not hold me back at that invitation time. And I hope, as you heard Max say those words, that it took you back to that time when you experienced God's grace for the very first time. That moment when you just felt that compulsion that you had to make a decision for Jesus Christ and give him your life. So I love the concept of the golden anniversary of grace. I also loved when he talked about wanting to switch ministries. And then someone said to him, well, they let you preach the gospel, don't they? And sometimes in our ministries we can start to major in minors and the big rocks. And the big things are that we still have the opportunity to. To preach and to share the gospel. And Max has done that in compelling ways, not just through the spoken word, but also through the written word. He had some great suggestions for us on rewriting. He had some. Some helpful tips on creative block and writer's block when we experienced that. And I think overall, if you take anything away from this, I hope it's the spirit. I hope it's the fact that here is a man who has achieved so much in the world's eyes, and yet he brings everything back to Jesus. And the focus and attention always comes back to Christ. And that phrase. I could care less if you have this tattooed on your skin, but I care deeply that tetelestai is tattooed on your heart. And if you are a Christ follower, which you are, then it is finished and the debt has been paid in full, and the debt has been erased because of Tetelestai, because of the fact that Jesus went to the cross. The story that I want to share with you today is actually a Max Lucado story. And I've shared it two or three times throughout the last 10 or 15 years as a conclusion to a sermon. And sometimes I'll just pick it up and I'll read it and I'll try to read it with the same inflection that that Max shared when I heard him tell it years ago. But maybe you can use this story. Max says. Joe Albright had a reputation in Andrews county where I was raised. He was a tough, fair, and fearless rancher. He had a huge acreage on the east side of town, and everyone knew that if you wanted to go hunt rabbits, you didn't go on his land. But his son James was my best friend. James and I sat on the bench together in high school football. And I remember once after an out of town game, he invited me to spend the night with him. And because the game was out of town, we didn't reach his ranch house until well after midnight. And his father, Mr. Albright, did not know me or my car. And when I drove up that dirt road to his ranch house, there was, there stood Joe Albright, if I remember correctly, in his underwear on the porch with a huge flashlight. Not recognizing me and not knowing my vehicle, I stepped out of the car and he put that flashlight right in my face. Who are you? And, man, I just kind of shook for a second. And finally, James, who had not been paying attention to, stepped out from around the passenger side and said, oh, hey, it's okay, dad. This is Max. He's with me. And when Joe heard the voice of his son James, he put the flashlight down and he said, oh, oh, won't you come in, Max? Now, why could I go in? Because I was with the Son of the Father. And the reason that you will not need to fear judgment is not because of your good deeds, but because you know the Son of the Father. And when your heavenly Father sees you in the company of his son and hears Jesus say, he's with me, he will lower the floodlight of judgment and say, come on in. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2

Christ.

Speaker 1

Well, a huge part of what we hope to accomplish with this podcast is to equip you both personally and professionally. And one way that we do that is through the focused pastor.org and when you create a free Focused Pastor account, you gain exclusive access to free resources. Plus, we give you half off of everything in the Focus Pasture store. So to sign up, head over to the focuspastor.org or just go to our show notes and you can click the show notes there. Also, if you are on Instagram, you can follow us on Pastor to Pastor podcast and you'll be aware of all that's coming up and all that's taken place in the past. Thanks for joining us. Every Tuesday, we drop a brand new conversation on Pastor to Pastor. It's designed to encourage, inspire, and challenge you. Leadership can be lonely. We call this Pastor to Pastor for a reason. It's to remind you that you're not alone. So until next time, I'm Dave Stone. God bless.