Speaker 1
Have you ever wondered what the Bible really says about heaven? Where is it? Or what'll we do there? On this edition of Focal Point, we'll get solid biblical answers from our pastor and teacher, Mike Febares. Glad you could join us today for Focal Point, I'm your host, Dave Drouehe.
Well, at the end of every week, sit down with Pastor Mike to answer some pressing questions you've sent in. And to ask Pastor Mike a question of your own, you can simply post it @focalpointradio.org connect.
But right now, we're going to join executive director Jay Wurton as he meets up with Pastor Mike Fabarez inside the pastor's study to question him about the afterlife.
Speaker 2
Welcome to Focal Point. Today I have Pastor Mike sitting across from me. We're ready to answer some questions from our listeners, and I've got a really good one.
Pastor Mike, this listener says, "I'm dreading heaven because I feel like all we're going to be doing is singing for eternity. I don't even like to sing. Is heaven just a nonstop worship service?"
Sounds like this listener thinks heaven might be a little boring. How would you respond to that and what does the Bible have to say about heaven?
Speaker 3
Well, it may sound like a silly question for a lot of our listeners, but, you know, it's really a reasonable question based on the caricature of heaven that's painted sometimes, you know, with translucent bodies, with golden harps, disembodied spirits floating around in cotton ball clouds, all of that, which I sometimes, you know, use that quick phrase in the pulpit. Just that view of heaven that's just not real. Clearly we're in resurrected bodies, intangible bodies, eating real food, you know, doing what the Bible says will be worshipful.
One of the words that's used for worship at the end of the Book of Revelation, for what we're doing in the new Jerusalem, is service. So this isn't just an endless, you know, start at the beginning of the hymn book, get to the end, start over. This is an experience of living in the ideal place with ideal relationships, with ideal tasks, with ideal service, doing the things that God asks us to do, and we'll be interacting in real relationships, and it'll be the fulfillment of all that we were made to enjoy. I mean, that's what the Bible promises us.
I think of that parable when Jesus is. He'll take up his apron there and he'll gird himself to serve us. The God of the universe who made human beings, extracting all sin, will now serve us. He will give us the desires of our heart. He will give us the things we're designed for. Now, how do we imagine the perfect when all we've experienced is the imperfect? But it's going to be great.
And I would say I always think of the C.S. Lewis illustration of trying to explain how great some adult pleasure is in life or marriage. He was talking about, in his illustration, a kid that thinks the only thing that's pleasurable is eating candy. And to think that explaining the pleasures of marital love to a kid and trying to say, well, it doesn't involve chocolates, you know, it's hard for a little kid to imagine.
And so what we need to understand is there's something about our immaturity that doesn't even give us a real sense of anticipation that we should have for the perfect fulfillment of everything that God will embed in our hearts as remade, resurrected people. It's going to be great. It will not be boring. I can assure the listener it will not be boring.
Speaker 2
Now, you said tasks work. Can you elaborate a little bit on what the Bible maybe speaks to in terms of that? I wish I could. Any hints of that?
Speaker 3
Well, you know, I guess we see.
Speaker 2
Some judging going on.
Speaker 3
Well, I think a lot of the statements about judging in the 12 tribes of Israel for the 12 apostles, most of these are pictures that are pointed at, in my theology, at the Millennial kingdom. But I do think we have information about the Millennial kingdom, which is an idealized situation. It's not as perfect as the New Jerusalem.
If we read there in the end of the book of Isaiah, or we even think through some of the statements Jesus made to the apostles, these are the kinds of things that look really good. They are busy, they're ruling, they're leading, as Paul said, to the Corinthians. We'll be adjudicating any kind of issue between even angels. I don't know what all it involves other than it will involve our minds, it'll involve our strength, it'll involve our emotions, it'll involve all the things that human beings have as capacities. But it won't be fallen and it won't be in a fallen world.
I guess a good thing I keep going back to in my thinking, just in this question, is when work prior to the fall was introduced in the garden. And then work was something that was going to change when the curse came, that there would be thorns in the field and you would have to earn your bread, your food, by the sweat of your brow. Take out the sin part of that, you've got work cultivating a garden in that case, and you don't have the frustration, you don't have the objection of thorns and thistles. You don't have the injection of all of that evil.
So I guess we can start to imagine what it's like in that regard. But the New Jerusalem, we don't have a lot of information, frankly, about it. We don't know. We got more on the Millennial kingdom and that looks pretty good. People doing a lot of cool stuff, if you will. And in the idealized, ultimate, perfect New Jerusalem, we can only imagine it's like that, only better.
Speaker 2
You say New Jerusalem, can you give us a sense of. I mean, most people will think of heaven or it's somewhere up in the sky. What exactly? Where will we be ultimately? And what are maybe some of the interim places that we end up before we get there?
Speaker 4
Right.
Speaker 3
Well, you know, in my theology, the church age ends with the rapture of the Church. Seven year period, time of Jacob's trouble, this time with Jesus, called the Great Tribulation. We have the Battle of Armageddon. At the end of that, we have the saints coming back with Christ at that time. We have then the establishment of the millennial kingdom for a thousand years. And then we have the Great White Throne judgment at the end of that after a short rebellion. And then we have the E State, the New Jerusalem.
Now, like Randy Alcorn in his book, which I sometimes recommend, I think we may have even given it to our listeners at one time. The word heaven is kind of, you know, an abbreviated reference to the New Jerusalem only insofar as it says there at the end of the Book of Revelation, the dwelling of God is now among men. And that I would say, though some might debate me on this, it's because Jesus, the God man, has come down to dwell as the leader and Lord of his people.
There still is a heaven; it's a new heaven, and there still is an earth; it's a new earth. But God is among us. And wherever God is, as writers have said, we can call that heaven if we want to. Technically, I would say, and as you often hear me preaching, I like to call the eternal state the New Jerusalem, because I want us to think of it as a city, as a place, as a tangible place here on earth.
Because once you start talking about heaven again, your mind will go to translucent bodies, disembodied spirits, and all of that. But that's not the eternal reality for Christians. We're on earth, and we are on a new earth called the New Jerusalem, which is the major place there, this 1500-mile cubed city, however that turns out to be. But that's how it's described in the Bible. And it's going to be where God himself, in the unmitigated glory of the resurrected Christ, will dwell and lead us in that place.
Speaker 2
The media wants to portray us as, you know, being able to get paradise here on earth.
How do we respond to people who think that there's a way to get paradise on earth?
Or is there any paradise on earth or any foretaste of heaven here on earth that we can look to?
Speaker 3
Have you found any of that yet, Nick?
Speaker 1
No.
Speaker 3
Okay.
Speaker 2
Not yet. Okay, well, I was hoping you might.
Speaker 3
Know where it is. There isn't. I mean, that's the point. You know, the Bible says this earth unfortunately is going to get worse and worse. And as Jesus even said with his own words, you know, you're going to hear wars and rumors of wars, going to be earthquakes, famines, all of that's going to continue until the end. So there is no heaven here on earth.
As a matter of fact, for those that are most heavenly, if you will, the regenerate people of earth, the Bible says in this world you're going to have tribulation. And for those that are saints, if you want to live godly in this world, you're going to incur persecution. It's just part and parcel of living here.
Now I know non-Christians can fit in in this world, but even those that say they have the most freedom and fit in in this world, as 2 Peter 2 says, they're slaves to corruption. So there is no heaven here on earth. Our hope is in Christ coming back when the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord. That's the Father and of his Christ, that's the Son.
Christ in this new world will reign forever, and that's the end hope for us. And that's what we're looking forward to. In the meantime, we'll make the best of our time here. But we're here to serve the Lord and to live for him and get as many people to repentance and faith as possible so that we can all experience the joy and fulfillment of the new earth, the new Jerusalem.
Speaker 2
Thank you, Pastor Mike. You know, a while back you talked more about what God's word has to say about our eternal home. And right now we're going to listen to a message called Heaven Advice for the earthbound citizens of a new Jerusalem.
Speaker 4
I'VE been told that Mark Twain once said, "Heaven, you can have it. I'd rather go to Bermuda." Now, where I probably would hope and think that most of you would never repeat such a crude and crass and blasphemous thing, I would be fearful just a little bit that maybe, though we wouldn't say it, we might reflect a bit of that value.
I mean, let's just think it through for a second. If I were to contemplate as a Christian how it might go if I were to acquire a free trip to Bermuda, I might begin to think of the pink sandy beaches and hanging out there for the morning. Maybe a nice lush green tea box that overlooks the ocean might be another image that conjures up in my mind. Perhaps a little snorkeling in some crystal clear water with some beautiful coral reefs and maybe chartering a fishing boat and wrestling with the barracuda for an afternoon. Or maybe water skiing in the shadow of a palm-lined cove there, parasailing, if I had time before dinner to catch a little bit of that, possibly.
And after a long day of vacationing-type activities, I could picture myself on the beach with a huge barbecue, fixing myself dinner, silhouetted by a perfect sunset. Ah, Bermuda.
Now, if I were to think for a while about what it would be like to go to heaven, let's see here. I might think about...
Speaker 3
Maybe a really.
Speaker 4
Long church service, maybe some transparent angelic type beings. Let's see, what else? Really long church service.
Speaker 3
Did I mention that?
Speaker 4
You get my point, right? I think we as Christians have a little trouble getting excited about heaven because we're really not clued into what exactly is going to happen there. We don't know what it's like, we don't know what it's going to be like. We don't know what's going to take place there. And though we know we're supposed to be very excited about going there, it is easy for us to set our minds on our next summer's vacation and get more excited about that than going to heaven.
There was an old phrase that used to be used of Christians. It was a label of derision and it used to go something like this: that Christians are so heavenly minded, they are no earthly good. You've heard that, right? Well, I for one would love to earn just a little bit of that title back because I, like you, I would guess, have become so entrenched in planet Earth and my activities here that I have not been very careful to obey the command of scripture which says, for instance, in Colossians, chapter three, verse one, that since you have been raised up with Christ spiritually, therefore you are to set your hearts on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Do not set your mind on things in this earth. It says you are to set your minds on things above, so keep focused there. That's not a divine suggestion; that's a command for us. It is supposed to, in some way, as we fix our compass on heaven, dictate how we make decisions here and now.
And I would be the first to confess to you that it is very hard in 20th century America to focus for very long and get very excited about heaven. So I'm just going to take two verses to kind of open the door and scratch the surface of where God might want us to begin to shift our values, our thinking, and our mindset. Because it's a practical command of Scripture to keep our minds focused there.
So take your Bibles, turn to Revelation, chapter 21. John, as we have said many times, is watching this all unfold in a sort of multimedia presentation of these end-time events. And one of the last things that he sees is introduced here in Revelation chapter 21. The text reads in verses 1 and 2, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband."
I think we can easily surmise from verse number one that God would want us not to get too attached down here. The logic comes from verse one where the Bible says there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth. Those are words worth circling: new, not the old ones. What about the old one? I've invested a lot of time down here. I've got a lot of things that I have worked on down here. I've got a good house that I've worked on down here. And what about that first one?
Well, here's the truth of scripture about the first heaven that I've spent so much time investing in: the first heaven and the first earth have passed away. Said so simply, and yet such a distinct and profound shift. Everything that we know of in this earth is, letter A, temporary. It is not going to be here forever. One day, everything on this planet, even if I have a great foresight of planning and building for centuries to come, leaving behind a legacy, possibly of ministry or business or success, it is all temporary.
If that's the case, verse 13 says, in keeping with the promise, we're not looking at the stuff here; then we're looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. That sounds good to me. Something permanent. If that's the case, verse 14 says, since you're looking forward to that, then make every effort to be found spotless, blameless, and at peace with him. We can get a lot of spots on us, we can gather a lot of blame, and we can be at odds with God and lose that peace when we find our roots going deep into the things of this world.
I'm just talking about the stuff of the world. I'm not talking about even the evil world system. I'm talking about even the good stuff of this world. Stuff that we consider as blessings from God, answers to prayer. It's all going to burn. And I just need to keep that perspective, to hold things loosely and start getting more attached to that place there.
By the way, do you see these words up in verse 1? New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem in verse 2? There are a couple of words in the Greek language for new. When we talk about getting a new car, you might wonder, "Mike got a new car." Does that mean new to him and that's someone's old car, or does that mean new, new, brand new, right? In the Bible, there are two words for that. This is, of course, the word brand new. This is not just kind of a, you know, somebody's old earth and somebody's old heaven. This is brand new stuff, totally different and distinct from the old one. And it is holy. That means it's perfect.
It is coming down out of heaven from God. This new Jerusalem, this holy city that comes from God, it will be. And he just throws in this analogy to give us something we can connect with: it will be prepared as a bride, beautifully dressed for her husband.
Speaker 2
Wow.
Speaker 4
For those of us that have had the experience, and in my case, I dated my wife for five stinking years, right? It was a long time. And when you're in love or whatever you think it is, there is a strong attraction going on here. And here we are living under this standard of God, trying to do what God wants, which means by definition, there is a distance there, right? There is a barrier set up. We don't participate in things that would break this wall of intimacy that divides us as two individuals.
The day when she walked down that long aisle, they don't get dressed up better than that day, right? I mean, that was the sight. Here she comes, all that waiting, all that preparation, all that longing to be as close with this person as I could possibly be. There she is. I remember standing there at the front next to the pastor, and there she comes. Now, if you've had a good experience like that, then you can identify with this passage. What John is trying to relate to us is the concept that God's gift to us will be, I put it this way, Mal, in the new Jerusalem, it will be like you're on the receiving end of that bride that you've longed for for so long, walking down that aisle, presenting to you herself. What a great picture that is.
With that coming, if this is reality, then what do we do when hugging this world? Do you understand? Why are we wasting our time getting so upset when we don't get what we want down here? Striving so hard to get that promotion and to sell those extra products and try and make that extra money. Why is that so darn important to us when God has that bride for us, our eternal home? If we were just to reorient our priorities, God says, I'll store up more up there for you. What a wonderful thought. What an incredible thought. God has prepared for me a place that is so perfect that when I see it being presented to me, it will be the full consummation of my joy. It will be like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband, ready to be presented to me.
Hebrews 11 tells us a little bit about a template of godly men and women who have given up the passing pleasures of this world to embrace by faith something they did not see. I'm asking you, in essence, if you were to be responsive to our message, to stop holding so tightly to the things of this world and start being more heavenly minded, setting our affection on things above, setting our mind and our hearts there. I just want to show you guys that have done it and what the Bible says about those people.
Hebrews 11:8 says, "By faith," and there's the key. We will never walk through the doors of this church with a new affection for heaven without a big dose of trust in God. And Abraham had it by faith. Abraham, when called to go to a place that he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. He left from Ur of the Chaldeans, the base of the Mesopotamian region, and went all the way across the desert down into Palestine. This was the place that God had promised for him. The problem was, it wasn't much of a place. He went and obeyed; he didn't know what it was like. There were no travel brochures before he left. He made his home in that promised land.
Verse 9 says, "Like a stranger and a foreigner in that country, he lived in tents." He didn't have a mansion. His son Isaac did the same, and his son Jacob did the same. They didn't see any great city there because God was not interested so much in the material city; He was interested in a city to come. Drop your eyes down to verse 13. People like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they were still living by faith when they died. But God has something better planned. In verse 16, it says, "Instead, these kinds of people, they were longing for a better country." That's what I pray we would do—a heavenly one. Therefore, with that kind of heart, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. I love that.
The more I long for it, the Bible says, the more He piles up stuff there for my enjoyment. Would you be willing, just for a little bit, to reevaluate and reprioritize the things in your life? We use so many earthly things as an excuse for not doing and serving God the way He would want. The text says, if I can think and have that eternal mindset and drive myself to value the things above, God says He is not ashamed to be called my God, and He's prepared a city for me.
Revelation 21:1-2 tells us, "When I see that city, it will not only be the perfect gift from God, it will be the consummation of every joy in my heart." Mark Twain said he'd rather have Bermuda. Fine, take it. For you and I, I hope we can begin to adjust our sights and say, "I want the new Jerusalem." I want it so bad that I want it to affect my thinking, my priorities, and my values, so much so that the world can look at us and begin to say again. And I hope they would for us earthbound Christians of our day, say, "You know what? You guys are starting to get so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good."
I really do not have any real good to do and offer to this earth until I, as a Christian, set my hope and my mind firmly on heaven. Let's attempt to be heavenly minded and watch God transform our daily decisions to reflect that eternal perspective. And when we do, we'll arrive one day at this place, watch God wipe the old world out, and God will present to us the world that we've been waiting so long for, and a city that He says is full of things that He has put there because we have worked and longed and valued them.
Speaker 1
An intriguing glimpse of our future heavenly home today on Focal Point with Pastor Mike Fabarez. The abbreviated message you've just heard is called "Advice for the Earthbound Citizens of a New Jerusalem." Find the complete uncut version when you visit focalpointradio.org.
You know we love getting letters from listeners like this one from Chris in Missouri, who writes, "I stumbled upon your radio broadcast today and was so encouraged and enlightened by what was taught. I wanted to hear more. I greatly appreciate that you provide your sermons as free downloads from your website. This makes it possible for me to listen anytime when I can. I will support you by becoming a Focal Point partner. Thanks be to God for you and for giving me a schedule today that allowed me to catch your message. It's made a big impact on my perspective."
Well, connecting with new listeners like Chris is the reason why Focal Point is dedicated to bringing you these in-depth studies free over the radio, podcast, web, and on our mobile app. And it's only possible because listeners like you give generously to keep this going.
When you give today, you're going to receive a book by Ron Rhodes called "What Happens After: Amazing Revelations About Heaven and Hell." It's everything you need to know about the afterlife, straight from God's Word itself. Ask for it when you call 888-320-5885 or online at focalpointradio.org. You can also write to Focal Point, Post Office Box 2850, Laguna Hills, CA 92654.
And finally, for the newest member of our Focal Point family, welcome! Call in today and ask for the free gift Pastor Mike wants to send you. It's a bracing CD message called "Priorities Intention." Get your priorities in order and find renewed purpose in life. Ask for your free CD by calling us at 888-320-5885.
I'm Dave Droue, wishing you a wonderful weekend ahead. Here, Pastor Mike Fabarez continues his journey through Luke after the weekend, so be sure to come back Monday for Focal Point. Today's program was produced and sponsored by Focal Point.
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