Focus on the Family

Guest (Male): Is your marriage struggling, communication breaking down, trust fading, conflict that never seems to resolve? There is still hope. Hope Restored marriage intensives by Focus on the Family help couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the marriage investment initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/invest.

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Jim Ramos: I said God, I’m going to outlove and outserve my bride even if she never reciprocates because I’m a Christian man, I’m modeling Jesus Christ.

John Fuller: That’s Jim Ramos and Jim and his wife Shanna are with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. They're going to be talking about the benefits to both spouses when a husband is intentional in marriage. Thanks for joining us, I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Well, let's start with I hope Jean is not listening today, my wife. This is one of those shows where if she hears this, I’m in trouble.

I’ll just make sure I send it to her.

But she would be cheering us on today saying yes, an engaged husband and engaged father, this is what we need in our homes today. And I certainly try to be, I’m being a little facetious. But there are times when I probably did not meet the standard, but I want you to meet the standard. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today, how husbands can step up and be the husbands and the fathers they need to be in the home.

That right there already goes "Ah, I don’t want this, turn the station, turn it off, the podcast, whatever it might be." But stick with us because we’re going to have some great information from our guests today to talk about that with their book *Dialed In: Reaching Your Full Capacity as a Man*, a man of God actually. And we’re going to talk about how you can get there.

John Fuller: And Jim and Shanna have been here at Focus via our marriage podcast with Greg and Erin Smalley, so we’re glad that you had that opportunity to get introduced to our audience. But we’re glad you’re here for this show. Jim is an author and is the founder of Men in the Arena, which is a terrific ministry. He's got the book you’ve mentioned, Jim, and we thought it’d be good to have Shanna here as we talk specifically about marriage.

Jim Daly: Representing all women. Thank you.

Defending myself.

Jim Daly: That’s great to have you, defending yourself and all women. But it’s good to have you both.

Appreciate it, it’s an honor.

Jim Daly: So let me ask you, we’ll start here, the first year of your marriage. That’s what everybody wants to hear about, right? Let's go back, but you wrote the book, not me, so the first year of your marriage was not particularly easy, right? You were learning some things. How would you describe it?

Shanna Ramos: It was rough. You walk into marriage thinking that you’re marrying your dream guy and it was not that scenario at all.

Jim Daly: Well what, I mean to give us, you wrote the book, give us those, what was going on so people can go, "Oh yeah, that’s us" or "that was us". So what were some of the things that were happening that were so disappointing?

Shanna Ramos: I think for him I didn’t cook, I never really learned how to cook. I think that was a big one. Using, not being able to use towels because they were decorative, just all the girl things and just the lack of communication and then the unhealthy form of communication.

Jim Daly: So did you guys kind of go at it, fight, verbally going after each other?

Very much so.

We’re very similar in personality type.

Jim Daly: Describe that.

Jim Ramos: So I’m a choleric-sanguine and she’s a melancholy-choleric. And so that choleric box is what drew us together.

Jim Daly: And describe that for those that don’t know that.

Jim Ramos: The choleric would be, I think Gary Smalley called that the lion. That’s the natural leader, bold, demonstrative, vocal. And so that’s how we communicated and we just did not communicate early on what we expected from each other in marriage. And so I was a cook through high school and college, she assumed I’d cook in the marriage and I thought she would, yeah, just didn’t work out that way.

Jim Daly: And so but you got married thinking she’d do all that stuff and I’ll do this stuff, I’ll be provider, protector. Was that kind of your formula?

Jim Ramos: I don’t know what it was. I was coaching football and I was in ministry and I just thought she would serve me and meet all my needs and I didn’t realize even while in ministry how backwards and how contrary to scripture that was and how immature I was through the process.

Jim Daly: Oh yeah. So you got home after the honeymoon. Did you come home that night after your big coaching job and you sat at the table and you both looked at each other and said "What are we doing? Who's cooking?" What happened?

Jim Ramos: What happened was we walked into the house and I said "What’s for dinner?" She said "I don’t cook." I said "Well, I’m going to go take a shower." She said "Don’t use the towels on the handrail, use your old college towels because those are decorative and you can’t use the pillows on the bed or the duvet cover." I didn’t even know what a duvet cover was let alone spell it. Yeah, I still don’t. And I thought "Who did I marry?"

Jim Daly: Wow, yeah, that sounds like a rough start. Some of those things would have normally been talked about ahead of time a little bit.

Correct, and you would have thought that they were, especially with him being in ministry. So I think we just kind of walked in a little blind.

Jim Daly: Now, there was an epiphany, so the people that are going "Oh yeah, that was us", there was that epiphany where you decided there had to be a better way. Who came up with that first idea of this isn’t working?

Jim did.

Jim Ramos: I was at a men’s conference, Promise Keepers conference.

Jim Daly: How long had you been married?

Jim Ramos: Two years. Two years in. And I’m sitting at the conference and I’m hearing a guy scream from the pulpit "You’ve got to outlove and outserve your wife!" And I was sitting there going "Man, this guy’s just saying the same thing over and over" and about halfway through God spoke to my heart.

And I turned to the guy next to me and I said "God just spoke to me." "What’d he say?" "I need to outlove and outserve my wife." And so I went home and I made a public declaration in front of the church I was going to do that. I didn’t know what that looked like, but I started making her coffee every morning. We were raising kids and I’ve done that ever since. That’s my reminder to do that for her and it changed our marriage and she can tell you about how it changed for her, but it changed our marriage.

Jim Daly: Yeah, well tell me. I mean those first days of that difference, did you notice it or were you thought he was playing a game?

Shanna Ramos: No, I mean we’re not game players, that’s not who we are. So it for me meant so much because that meant that I was valued.

Jim Daly: You felt it?

Shanna Ramos: Right from the beginning. Yeah, because it was such a contrast to what we had been living. And unbeknownst to us years later we would find out that my love language was Acts of Service. So that fit.

Jim Ramos: The Holy Spirit, that’s all I can say was a miracle. And I didn’t realize that that was her love language and so now I know that she needs me to be Christ to her.

Jim Daly: So that, that’s a good epiphany two years in. Some couples it may be 10 years, 20 years and they still haven’t had that kind of epiphany, they just kind of grind each other on the edges but they’re in for the marriage, they’re not going to divorce and maybe this is going to be the epiphany. Maybe we need to do something differently. So you want to look at that and take that assessment.

Jim, let me ask you, you kind of in the book you describe the difference between maleness and masculinity. I don’t know that I could do that. I would think they’re kind of the same.

Jim Ramos: Yeah, I think toxic masculinity is oxymoronic. So if you look up the definition of masculinity in Oxford Dictionary, it’s the qualities and characteristics that make up a man. And so based on that definition which is a secular definition, we don’t have toxicity. Toxicity comes from males, males who refuse to raise their families, they defer the leadership to another man or they defer the leadership to social media. Males do not accept the responsibilities that God has given them.

But men when they walk in their masculine gift, they step up. A man who knows Jesus Christ, he steps up, he loves his bride, he serves her, he leads the family, he understands the bent of his children and he raises them up along with his wife accordingly. So I think that males are born but men are made.

Jim Daly: No, I like that definition. I think unfortunately the culture, especially of the era probably the last 20 years, we’ve leaned as a culture to raise up tenderness and kind of gentleness, not necessarily follow me, I will take this hill and we together will die on this hill. I mean that’s seen as a little strong. Do you know what I’m saying?

Jim Ramos: Yeah, I mean if you look at the definition of meek in the Bible, it’s a stallion bridled. So I still get to be a stallion but I’m bridled. Okay, just checking. See that was a good example of how to do it, men. Thank you for listening to Focus on the Family. I’m a stallion that’s bridled by the Holy Spirit. And that’s the strength under direction. I like that.

Jim Daly: Shanna, let me ask you, do you think men need to understand better the difference between the communication between men and women? This is what Gary Smalley built his career on.

Shanna Ramos: Absolutely, because we do speak completely differently. Like I can say something and I know what I mean and he hears something completely different. So and every marriage is different. So you and Jean communicate differently than Jim and I would communicate. The way we communicate most people would not enjoy each other or being married.

Jim Daly: And it’s good news that you’re able to overcome those things. That’s a wonderful testimony too that you can be in a bad spot but there’s hope for everybody, which is what we’re hoping people will hear today. So if they’re in a bad spot they can contact us, we have caring Christian counselors, we’ve got a marriage assessment that Greg Smalley and the team put together and it’s really good stuff. And that’s what people need to think about with Focus, just a treasure trove of content to help people do life better and you’re a part of that.

In that regard though, that communication, I’m thinking back to early marriage issues. There’s an assumption I think many wives will make that we get it, that we understand what you’re thinking. We don’t. We can’t figure that out. I think for to help men if we’re putting it in that category, it’s really helpful for wives to just tell us what you expect and not to diminish our grade because we had to ask you to tell us.

Shanna Ramos: Correct, and I think how we tell you, it needs to come across that it’s your idea for the most part. And so that art of communication I’m still learning.

Jim Daly: That can be really hard though. We need to grow up a little bit on the guy side and celebrate your idea. But I get what your point is, sometimes it goes better if it’s the other person’s idea. I think that can work both ways.

Shanna Ramos: Well, and just bringing it around like instead of you, you, you, it needs to be more of a conversation. Like just this last year when I had my shoulder surgery, I will probably never get that kind of time off of work again. And so I had to bring it up to him. "Hey, it would be really great if you could take some time and let's take a couple weeks and get away." But the way I worded it, I don’t even remember.

Jim Daly: I bet Jim does. Let's go to Jim.

Jim Ramos: It was masterful. She sent me a text, "I need to talk to you. I don’t want you to respond, I just want to talk to you." And she said "The next six months I can’t work. We have an opportunity like we’ve never had in our marriage to spend quality time together and I just want you to pray about taking two or three weeks off to spend time together building our marriage. Will you pray about that?" And she, the question, she asked a question. She didn’t say "You need to" or "You should". She put it in my court and I called her back instantly, "I’m in" because it was my call and she let me reason with it through my own processes. It was actually masterful.

Jim Daly: Yeah, and that’s a good thing to do. I mean Jesus kind of modeled that for us, didn’t he? Ask questions and that can move hearts, especially when the person’s giving you the answer right away. Oh yeah, it’s easy. And then that inclusiveness, it feels like that’s the, look what I get to do to shine for my bride. We do like that. We’re a little bit of a peacock mentality, look at the feathers, right? So it’s always fun.

Jim, men are called to be peacemakers. I don’t know that I would see that in myself. I can be an agitator. I just did that last night. My boys were at the house and I, we were going on about something Jean and I. And it was oh, it was putting my clothes away. Here’s a good confession. And so I, they’re out on the couch and we have company coming the next day, today. And I needed to get the clothes up but I kept like needling Jean, just ribbing her. And I was just doing it for fun. And Trent, my oldest is going "Pull up, pull up, pull up". He was like locked in and I mean I’m going "Yeah, just be quiet dad". And I went "Okay" and Jean started laughing and it was just one of those things. But some of that is learned behavior, right? Where if you come from a home where you had siblings and you teased each other, which I did, that’s kind of what you did. It’s kind of sport. But that can be damaging, can’t it?

Shanna Ramos: Yes, especially your spouse’s upbringing. I mean it may not have been sport for them, it may have been more damaging and hurtful.

Jim Daly: So how do we bring that peacemaker mentality into that, Jim? As men, how do we become not the agitator but the peacemaker?

Jim Ramos: There’s peacemakers, peace-breakers and peace-fakers. So peace-faker just kind of goes the flow, sweeps it under the table, it’s not there, we ignore it, it’s going to go away. A peacemaker comes in with a God-honoring solution that will bring a remedy to a given situation. A peace-breaker erupts and causes dissension and just comes in like a wrecking ball. That was me. I framed her poorly during the course of our child-rearing years when we’re in the stress bubble of life. I framed her as the enemy, I framed her as the crazy one. "Oh the house has to be clean, she’s raising three boys plus another one." And so what I did is I brought peace-breaking into the household and I’ve had to go back the last 10 years, repent to my adult children, repent to her. She’s a phenomenal, she’s a warrior, she’s faithful. I’ve had to just go back and fix that because I chose the route of peace-breaking as a solution to a problem and it was wrong.

John Fuller: There’s a lot there. You’ve got to be introspective and you’ve got to have an open heart and honesty. Well well done, that. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guests are Jim and Shanna Ramos and we’re so glad to have them here talking about marriage. Some of the content is from Jim’s book *Dialed In: Reaching Your Full Capacity as a Man of God*, which is specifically for guys, but we’re so glad Shanna’s here to help broaden out the conversation as we dial into marriage. Get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry. We’ve got the details for you at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: You know, Jim, in that context that shift can be, you’ve got to be intentional I guess. You’ve got to wake up every day "Okay, I’m going to serve my wife today." How did you do that? How did you keep that moving forward? How did you do it when you didn’t feel reciprocal appreciation? Not that Shanna didn’t, but I’m just saying in some cases it won’t happen. How do you say "Okay, she may not be appreciating this, but Lord I’m doing this for you"?

Jim Ramos: I said a prayer. I said "God, I’m going to outlove and outserve my bride even if she never reciprocates because I’m a Christian man, I’m modeling Jesus Christ." And he didn’t reciprocate, we didn’t reciprocate. We killed him. So for me it was simple. I’m going to be Jesus to my bride, I’m going to outlove her and I’m going to outserve her, I’m going to do it all my life. And it does take maintenance for us. We every 10 years we go in for marriage counseling whether we need it or not. New battery. Yes, we just we just do it. We don’t want to wait for a crisis. We want to work through that process. And she’s learning to affirm my love language which is words of affirmation. So when I do something to serve her and she goes "That cup of coffee was the best I’ve ever had in my life," I just want to go make her another cup of coffee because I want to please her, right? I want to do justice for her.

Jim Daly: Well, and it fits with that next question, men, and this has become a joke within marriage like men are conquerors and you get married and you stop the pursuit because the conquest is done. I won her heart and affection, we said "I do". So many guys or wives will write us and say "Yeah, my husband told me he loved me once at the altar and when I asked him about it it was like what more do I need to say? I love you." But it’s not how it goes, right? It’s not a healthy way to describe that. So in that context how do you overcome the reward of getting married to the woman you love and keeping that flame going?

Jim Ramos: The intentionality is the problem. We are lazy lions. And once we’ve feasted on the conquest it’s like "Okay, we’re done". But that is not good. When God said to leave your father and mother and cleave, that word cleave is the Hebrew word *dabaq*. I don’t know if you probably know this. It means four things: it means to impinge like we’re going to impinge upon each other’s singleness, it means to adhere to, to be joined to, but it also means to pursue, overtake, and chase after.

And my job, that’s my, and the women love hearing that, Shanna’s smiling here to ear. That’s my job. My job to cleave to her is to make sure I am pursuing her which she does naturally, she naturally’s built that way. I’m a natural conqueror. So God asks me and God’s so, he’s so, it’s incredible. He asks me to do what’s not my default. He asks me to do the hard thing. Love her, that’s not my default. My default is respect. And he asks me to pursue her, that’s not my default, my default is conquer.

So he asks us, doesn’t he always ask us to do the hard thing? He asks us to take the high road. And that’s what the joy of being a man and unfolding the mystery that is her. I just learned a year and a half ago she prefers crunchy peanut butter over creamy. Who doesn’t? Well, apparently a woman who raises three boys who like creamy peanut butter and sacrificing for the boys. So just a year ago I learned that. She’s a mystery that’s unfolding. I want to pursue the mystery that is Shanna. I just want known I can go creamy or crunchy. I love them both.

Jim Daly: It’s so good. Depends on the day. But Shanna that must make you feel good. Connected. What do you need as a wife to feel connected?

Time.

Jim Daly: Wow, okay. Which is tough for people that are in ministry or my job takes me away. But for me it’s time.

When you look at that benefit, I mean you’re doing some marriage counseling I would think even ad hoc. But when you’re talking to couples that are struggling like you did your first couple years of marriage, how do you and I’m thinking particularly the men, Jim, because the intentionality is what keeps, I sit here and hear all the experts tell great things to do and I often don’t apply them. And we as men do have an apathy. It’s discipline to do these things and do it over and over again to get the right result, to get the smile like Shanna had just given. But I don’t know why we struggle with that.

So let's knock that down. For a guy that isn’t able to do it consistently, how do we become more consistent in serving our wives well?

Jim Ramos: I have had so many conversations with couples that are failing in their marriage. The marriage is, there’s a certain test I use and their marriage is devitalized. And I’ve asked one question to Christian men that’s been a game-changer. Because most people I deal with aren’t in need of a professional counselor. They just needing wisdom and a kick in the pants or whatever. And I ask this question. "Man, I’m looking at this test here, you both Christians?" "Yes". "Wow, where’s Jesus?" And I look at the man and I say "Are you going to be Jesus in this relationship?" And when a man, a Christian man realizes he’s not being Jesus to the one person God has called him to be Jesus to, it can be a game-changer. We just need to be Jesus to our spouse.

Jim Daly: Right. It’s just that. Do you know I’m not perfect, Jim?

Me neither, bro.

Jim Daly: I just wanted to put that out there. Well my wife will attest to that.

But I so appreciate the point. And this is what it means to be a convictional Christian, to live it. And when you live it it’s amazing what the Lord will do through you. Let's talk at the end here about walking, the acronym that you use to help guys think this through. Give it to us. What is WALKING? It’s a rather long word by the way. I kind of laughed when I saw that I said "I’m looking for simple". How about walk?

Jim Ramos: I apologize. I had an argument with the pastor who married us who had actually left the local church ministry. I’m a big fan of the local church and we had this big discussion about Christians not needing the local church. And so I went back and I had to, I was 27 and he was in his 40s. So I went back and I thought "Okay, what does a Christian look like, a vibrant dynamic Christian man?" And I’m an old youth pastor so I love acrostics. So I just came up with this acrostic WALKING, based off of the Genesis 5:10 Enoch, Enoch walked with God.

And basically he worships God on a regular basis. A, he approaches God daily in prayer. L, he loves other believers through Christian fellowship. K, he knows the Word of God better than anyone in his family, I’ll put that in parentheses. I, he invests his fiscal and physical resources in God’s Kingdom. N, he nurtures other believers into faith. And then G, he gives his life wholeheartedly to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Galatians 6:14, Galatians 2:20, John 12:24. So these seven things in my opinion make a disciple, a vibrant dynamic man of God, woman of God.

Jim Daly: That’s really good. It is memorable. And Shanna, you’re the recipient of this, so Jim’s trying to spark us men that are listening and probably the wives that are listening that they’re going to get this book and lay it on their husband’s pillow. And what’s the benefit?

Shanna Ramos: A vitalized relationship, not a devitalized relationship. But it does go both ways. The women have to be willing to work as well and not just the men. Because it is a two-way street for sure.

Jim Daly: What is that look like in the relationship for you as the wife? What is that reciprocation when you feel filled up? We use the love tank language. And so when your love tank is full, what does that allow you to do emotionally for Jim?

Shanna Ramos: Give him back his love language, words of affirmation, which I am not good at. Really? No. So you’ve had to learn how to do that too. That’s your discipline challenge is how do I say things affirming to Jim? Because I’m not a faker, so I can’t say "Oh that was a great message" when you don’t think so.

Jim Daly: Well at least she’s honest, Jim.

Jim Ramos: She’s my greatest coach. Before every sermon she goes "You better bring it". Yes ma'am.

Jim Daly: Wow, no that’s a good challenge. I love it.

I need her to say that to me.

Jim Daly: So that’s good though. So you have to be sincere for you to deliver that. But that sincerity goes up when you feel loved.

And the more I do it the easier it becomes. It’s kind of like a habit. Like people that need to spend time in their marriage, if it’s just one hour a week, then just take that one hour a week if that’s all you’ve got right now.

That’s really good. And I think this message is awesome. And I think again we as human beings we tend to point to our spouse and say "That’s the problem, she’s the one" or "he’s the one". And all we can do is work on ourselves in the relationship.

I remember writing a book, my first book on *Coming Home*. And the criticism I got is that well Jim Daly’s advice is keep your expectations low. I grew up as that orphan kid, I didn’t have high expectations about adults in my life and I think it did give me an understanding of how the world worked pretty young. And I don’t even mean it as a bad thing, but just keep your expectation a little more in reality and that allows you to experience I think a more joyful life when you’re not having an expectation of what the other person should do for me. Right? And in marriage it’s critical and I don’t always do it well. I know Jean’s watching, so I have to throw that caveat in. Oh yeah, you’re a top of the mountain guy, but it’s our target.

So this has been great. Thank you so much for being with us. This is flying by. Huge honor. Thank you. And I hope you’ve been equipped to strengthen your marriage, that’s the goal. If you found it helpful share this episode with your spouse and you can find it at our website or at the Focus on the Family app.

And if you’re a husband who wants more insights into stepping up in your marriage and in other areas of your life, get a copy of Jim’s book *Dialed In: Reaching Your Full Capacity as a Man of God*. When you make a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family to join us in ministry, we’ll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you.

And when you donate, you help us encourage husbands like Ken who wrote in to tell us this. He said his job requires him to spend weeks at a time away from his family and he and his wife listen to the program together to get advice for building up their marriage so they can talk about it together on the phone. He went on to say "It just keeps me and my wife grounded so I tell my coworkers who might be having a bad day to listen to Focus on the Family." That’s a fun thing. Partner with us financially to help us reach more listeners and keep providing biblical resources for our families.

John Fuller: Yeah, donate today and get your copy of the book when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY or details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And coming up next time we’ll hear from mom and counselor Michelle Nietert. She'll share wisdom about teens and mental health.

Guest (Female): You do not put a kid who’s got a broken arm, let's say they’re struggling with anxiety or something already, you do not put them in a canoe to swim upstream with one paddle. They need other people on the boat to help them move that boat along the upstream of our culture today.

John Fuller: That’s next time on Focus on the Family. And remember, when you get in touch let us know how you’re listening. On our website, through our mobile app, or on our podcast feed. I’m John Fuller and on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, join us next time as we help you and your family thrive.